The Jaguar, 3DO, and Killing Time Options

[T2KFreeker]

Okay, I am not wanting this to get into a seriously heated discussion. However, I am trying to understand why it was said the Jaguar could "Easily" do Killing Time? I'm not trying to be harsh here or a Dick, but knowing what I know about the two systems, I can say that Killing Time pushed the 3DO to it's limits and then some. There are some really cool things that the game does that the system wasn't really supposed to be able to pull off including reflective surfaces, full on 3D Light Sourcing, as well as paralax transparencies. I'm not saying the Jaguar is a slouch as it was obviously a really powerful system that was, like the 3DO, underutilized for it's power. But to say that it would be easy to pull off this game is crazy. Killing Time is well known in the 3DO genre as being the one game that really showed what the 3DO was capable of. I am sure Jaguar might be able to pull off the game, however, I just don't know that it would have been easy to port. If anything, it might have to be redone from scratch from the ground up. As it is, the frame rates aren't perfect in Killing Time for 3DEO. I kind of see the same thing happening with a Jaguar version.

On a side note, Killing Time is NOT a Wolfenstein knock off. The two games are so different from a design standpoint. If you played it, you's know. Also, the PC version and MAC version don't count because they really aren't the same game at all. They were completely stripped down and is actually a smaller game as areas are completely missing from the games. Just for talk sake . . .


Oh, and for the Record, yes, Killing Time kicks total ass and if it were done right on the Jaguar, I'd be all over it.

[10p6]

Okay, I am not wanting this to get into a seriously heated discussion. However, I am trying to understand why it was said the Jaguar could "Easily" do Killing Time? I'm not trying to be harsh here or a Dick, but knowing what I know about the two systems, I can say that Killing Time pushed the 3DO to it's limits and then some. There are some really cool things that the game does that the system wasn't really supposed to be able to pull off including reflective surfaces, full on 3D Light Sourcing, as well as paralax transparencies. I'm not saying the Jaguar is a slouch as it was obviously a really powerful system that was, like the 3DO, underutilized for it's power. But to say that it would be easy to pull off this game is crazy. Killing Time is well known in the 3DO genre as being the one game that really showed what the 3DO was capable of. I am sure Jaguar might be able to pull off the game, however, I just don't know that it would have been easy to port. If anything, it might have to be redone from scratch from the ground up. As it is, the frame rates aren't perfect in Killing Time for 3DEO. I kind of see the same thing happening with a Jaguar version.

On a side note, Killing Time is NOT a Wolfenstein knock off. The two games are so different from a design standpoint. If you played it, you's know. Also, the PC version and MAC version don't count because they really aren't the same game at all. They were completely stripped down and is actually a smaller game as areas are completely missing from the games. Just for talk sake . . .


Oh, and for the Record, yes, Killing Time kicks total ass and if it were done right on the Jaguar, I'd be all over it.

I am being blunt here, and you know it was me who made the comments, but weren't you the guy who called me a troll and gave me a 10% warning and included:

"T2KFreeker Warned on Jun 8 2011, 12:41 PM
Added to warn level The dude is a Troll for sure. Attacking members for no good reason."

And that was for posting replies to my own threads. So please back down with these uncalled for attacks by you. Any why we are discussing this, why are you posting on here and AA? Where does your loyalty stand?


On a plus side, I think it would be a great game on the jaguar too.

[Gunstar]

I believe the Jaguar could do it, but you are right, saying it would be "easy" isn't true. As you said, it does stuff on the 3DO that was thought impossible, but it was also one of the most expensive developments ever done on the 3DO, and if the Jaguar had the same sort of financial backing and a team of dozens of programmers it could be done on it as well. Remember that even the Jag's killer apps had budgets that were insignificant in comparison. But, even so, there are some Jaguar programs that couldn't "easily" be done on the 3DO.

Killing Time is impressive in many ways, but it has very unprecise control; I always found it difficult to aim correctly, for example, it's too easy to over-turn your mark as turning around in the game is VERY choppy and doesn't have nearly the frame rate as moving forward does.

Actually, IMHO, Space Hulk is a more impressive game though it's a single plane like AvP and like AvP lacks the vertical movement that Killing time has.

But if you've never seen the unfinished Beta demo of the Jag game Varauna's Forces then I recommend checking it out; it has very similiar true 3D engine like Killing Time and is perfect proof that if given the budget and team, the Jag could do Killing Time. Even V.F. was a much smaller team with a much smaller budget.

This post has been edited by Gunstar: Jun 11 2012, 08:15 PM

[Gunstar]

Any why we are discussing this, why are you posting on here and AA? Where does your loyalty stand?

Where does his loyalty stand?!? Dude, there are a LOT of people that are member both here and on AA, including me, and just from this one line from you I'm starting to agree with T2Kfreeker...our loyalty lies with Atari and the Jaguar, NOT one site or another!

just becuase YOU decided you don't like AA or the people over there doesn't mean anyone else has to follow suit or agree! I was gone from both sites for about six months and when I returned, you were a "new" person hanging out on both sites and in the short time I've been back around, you've managed to rub me the wrong way with some of your lame statements on several occasions(nothing directed specifically at me, just generally lame statements), it's no wonder you had problems over on AA.

This post has been edited by Gunstar: Jun 11 2012, 08:24 PM

[JagChris]

I think the Jags hardware itself could do a lot of it easier than the 3do did. There are probably some features the Jaguar might not do as easily that aren't supported so well in hardware like maybe some graphics effect like reflections. Maybe. I heard the 3do had some cool features like that. But hardware wise, overall I think the Jag would be able to do it easier. Thats just hardware.

Actually developing a Killing Time clone that had the same features would be a monumental feat with the existing tools IMO.

[JagChris]

I want a 3do. I'm going to get a 3do. And one of the first game I'll get is Killing Time. I must play this game on a 3DO before I keel over.

[10p6]

Any why we are discussing this, why are you posting on here and AA? Where does your loyalty stand?

Where does his loyalty stand?!? Dude, there are a LOT of people that are member both here and on AA, including me, and just from this one line from you I'm starting to agree with T2Kfreeker...our loyalty lies with Atari and the Jaguar, NOT one site or another!

just becuase YOU decided you don't like AA or the people over there doesn't mean anyone else has to follow suit or agree! I was gone from both sites for about six months and when I returned, you were a "new" person hanging out on both sites and in the short time I've been back around, you've managed to rub me the wrong way with some of your lame statements on several occasions(nothing directed specifically at me, just generally lame statements), it's no wonder you had problems over on AA.

If you are going to make statements, then open it up. How did I rub you the wrong way? Lame statements? Ha. As for AA I am not pretending to be a moderator on one side, also I told them to delete my account just like many other people on here did, and if they go and lie then that is not my problem. On AA I stood up for what I believe is right, and they seem to be wearing shades these days where they cannot tell any more, and sadly it is getting the same way on here.

[therapy]

I want a 3do. I'm going to get a 3do. And one of the first game I'll get is Killing Time. I must play this game on a 3DO before I keel over.

So is that part of your bucket list?

The 3DO is a pretty cool machine though and Killing Time is a great game.
The frame rate however can be tough getting used to.

[T2KFreeker]

Any why we are discussing this, why are you posting on here and AA? Where does your loyalty stand?

Where does his loyalty stand?!? Dude, there are a LOT of people that are member both here and on AA, including me, and just from this one line from you I'm starting to agree with T2Kfreeker...our loyalty lies with Atari and the Jaguar, NOT one site or another!

just becuase YOU decided you don't like AA or the people over there doesn't mean anyone else has to follow suit or agree! I was gone from both sites for about six months and when I returned, you were a "new" person hanging out on both sites and in the short time I've been back around, you've managed to rub me the wrong way with some of your lame statements on several occasions(nothing directed specifically at me, just generally lame statements), it's no wonder you had problems over on AA.

If you are going to make statements, then open it up. How did I rub you the wrong way? Lame statements? Ha. As for AA I am not pretending to be a moderator on one side, also I told them to delete my account just like many other people on here did, and if they go and lie then that is not my problem. On AA I stood up for what I believe is right, and they seem to be wearing shades these days where they cannot tell any more, and sadly it is getting the same way on here.

Okay everyone, please chill out. As I said in my first post here, I don't want this to turn into a flame war. PLEASE


PLEASE

On a side note here, my loyalties have never been in question. As for me posting on AA, it has been quite some time since I have posted there. 10p6, if I called you a troll and gave a warning and it turns out it was for a bad reason, I apologize. I don't really remember what you are talking about though. However, if you scroll down in the shout box, I asked you specifically the shortened version of what was said in this thread as a question. I didn't do it to start a flame war, I did it because I was under the impression that you were a programmer and I wanted to know what your technical knowledge was on this. Nothing more, nothing less. I haven't posted in the Jaguar section in a very long time. I am both a Jaguar and 3DO fan, so I thought this would make for an interesting topic, again, nothing more, nothing less. I think there has been a mistake made here as I was not attacking you. I really want to know, in your opinion and everyone else's that's in the know, from a technical standpoint, if Killing Time would be as easy as you made it sound to port to the Jaguar. That's all man. I am not a programmer so I really don't have the full grasp and savvy to get everything. Just asking is all, nothing personal at all man. I personally don't want to fight with anyone here or anywhere else because I, like you seem to be too, am just sick of it all. We need to get past all of it so the community can get back into growing because we all love the Jaguar. I extend an olive branch on this, let's let bygones be bygones and just try and move on and enjoy the community is all I am asking. Oh, and why you think Killing Time would be so easy to port to Jaguar.

Back on topic; I agree with quite a few things that were said here, as witnessed with Robinson's Requiem, I believe the Jaguar would handle draw in a bit better than the 3DO did. Where my biggest concerns would be is the transparencies and the real time lighting effects. Those two things alone were just amazing in the game. Sadly, it did suffer for it as the controls can slip at times and the frame rate will stutter also. However, if you can bear with it, you really are in for a treat of a game. Also, one other thing I would have a small gripe about with the Jaguar is anyone who doesn't have a Pro Controller playing it. The triggers on the 3DO pad really are intricate for strafing, one of the HUGE things in the game. One of the first FPS games where I really felt that ducking around corners actually was a help. Enemies even do the same thing and will sneak up behind you if you aren't careful. I can say that strafing with the numeric pad on the Jaguar is a pain in the ass. AVP comes to mind. With the Pro Controller though, it's awesome.

[Gunstar]

Any why we are discussing this, why are you posting on here and AA? Where does your loyalty stand?

Where does his loyalty stand?!? Dude, there are a LOT of people that are member both here and on AA, including me, and just from this one line from you I'm starting to agree with T2Kfreeker...our loyalty lies with Atari and the Jaguar, NOT one site or another!

just becuase YOU decided you don't like AA or the people over there doesn't mean anyone else has to follow suit or agree! I was gone from both sites for about six months and when I returned, you were a "new" person hanging out on both sites and in the short time I've been back around, you've managed to rub me the wrong way with some of your lame statements on several occasions(nothing directed specifically at me, just generally lame statements), it's no wonder you had problems over on AA.

If you are going to make statements, then open it up. How did I rub you the wrong way? Lame statements? Ha. As for AA I am not pretending to be a moderator on one side, also I told them to delete my account just like many other people on here did, and if they go and lie then that is not my problem. On AA I stood up for what I believe is right, and they seem to be wearing shades these days where they cannot tell any more, and sadly it is getting the same way on here.

I have no idea what has gone on with you and AA, and the deletion of all your posts over there makes it impossible. I'm just saying do what you want, but don't attack others and speak of "loyalties" just becuase you have problems with AAand some people over there; others don't have a problem with AA or people over there and shouldn't have to follow you like you're a new leader of the Jag community or something. Keep your feelings to your self. As to where you "rubbed me the wrong way, I can't remember specifics and don't feel like searching a bunch of post to remind me, I merely recall vaguely that you've said things in other places that seem very controlling like your loyalty statement here, one example is your contest where you have so many specific rules you expect people to follow that it turns people off immediately, just have some general guide lines and if you don't like what people may submit, then don't award them the "prize."

I just don't like controlling people and it seems like you want to try and control the community. Maybe I'm wrong, but it hasn't taken long for me to see the signs.

Of course I'm not one to keep hard feelings toward people, I "forgive" and "forget." We all make judgements towards others, but I do keep it on a case-by case basis and I'm not going to hold a grudge. I'm just saying if you are having so much trouble in the community (like whatever it is over at AA), maybe check the controlling attitude.

I have been around here for 8 years and on AA even longer, and though I often get into it with others, as we are now, I've managed to not have any serious problems on either site, get banned, blocked or make such a fuss I ask to be removed. If someone thinks a lot of others have a problem, it generally turns out to be that person with the problem, not others.

I have no loyalties to AA, I have no loyalties to JS2, or Atari Proppa or any other Jag/Atari site, I'm a fan of the Jag and other Atari products (and the 3DO too). And that's where my "loyalties" lie. All this Jag community divide is just a bunch of bull shit to me and those involved are the ones with the attitude problems.

I'm a member of all the sites and enjoy most of the people on all the sites.

This post has been edited by Gunstar: Jun 12 2012, 01:34 PM

[Gunstar]

I think the Jags hardware itself could do a lot of it easier than the 3do did. There are probably some features the Jaguar might not do as easily that aren't supported so well in hardware like maybe some graphics effect like reflections. Maybe. I heard the 3do had some cool features like that. But hardware wise, overall I think the Jag would be able to do it easier. Thats just hardware.

Actually developing a Killing Time clone that had the same features would be a monumental feat with the existing tools IMO.

I-war on the jag uses reflection mapping, specifically on one of the enemies, and on shields when activated (the best example), of course you have to be out of first-person camera to see the effect.

[10p6]

As I have said in the competition thread, it is my money, and my rules. The rules are nothing out of the ordinary, and if you compare them to almost every other coding competition they are pretty sweet. As for AA, look at all the rest of the clan who were there, but now are here for many different reasons.


Getting back to topic. I mentioned "The Jag could easily pull off Killing Time. It is nothing more than a Wolf clone with a backdrop." The part of the video I seen at that time was of the maze which in my opinion that part at least is a wolf clone. The "Could easily" was probably a poor choice of words. I do believe though that with good programing the Jag could make an equivalent game. Parts as said may have to be cut back, but other parts I think the Jag could do better. It's a very interesting game but as said by others, it has a poor frame rate too, so yes I think it could be done on the Jag. Now I want a 3D0 $$$ anyone.

[Gunstar]

As I have said in the competition thread, it is my money, and my rules. The rules are nothing out of the ordinary, and if you compare them to almost every other coding competition they are pretty sweet. As for AA, look at all the rest of the clan who were there, but now are here for many different reasons.


Getting back to topic. I mentioned "The Jag could easily pull off Killing Time. It is nothing more than a Wolf clone with a backdrop." The part of the video I seen at that time was of the maze which in my opinion that part at least is a wolf clone. The "Could easily" was probably a poor choice of words. I do believe though that with good programing the Jag could make an equivalent game. Parts as said may have to be cut back, but other parts I think the Jag could do better. It's a very interesting game but as said by others, it has a poor frame rate too, so yes I think it could be done on the Jag. Now I want a 3D0 $$$ anyone.

I have read your statements regarding your rules in that thread, and I do understand your point of view, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it, it is more generous than the industry average. My point on the matter is that I think the vast majority of programmers for the jag are doing it for themselves, the love of the Jag and to give to the community and would probably rather retain full rights and creativity to their projects rather than sell them to you. That's all. Good luck with it.

[Willard]

I've got a copy of Killing time in my 3DO collection Would''ve been a great game on the Jaguar, only real complaint is the freakishly confusing level design in some areas. I don't doubt that the graphics could be accomplished on the Jaguar either (note that the enemies are not made of polygons and the level design is for the most part basic with alot of pretty textures), it just would have required the kind of effort and funding Atari could not garner. There are def. alot of nice graphical touches like fully polygonal tables (rather than billboarded tables seen in games such as AVP) that most dev teams didn't bother with at the time.

This post has been edited by Willard: Jun 12 2012, 05:25 PM

[Jagosaurus]

Varuna's Forces confuses me lol. Was it going to be a actor FMV game? I guess you are referring to the CG FMV. I seem to remember those looking nice.